North of 60

On Episode 7: North of 60 – Mark Fancourt-Smith and Alix Stoicheff speak to Northern partners, Sandra MacKenzie and Sheila MacPherson about our Northern practice and how practicing law North of 60 looks a little different.

Chapters

• 1:05 What kinds of law are practiced in the North?
• 2:22 How did you come to practice in the North?
• 5:43 How has the North been responding to the COVID-19 pandemic?
• 8:21 What kind of legal issues arise in the North?
• 10:29 How does traveling for work in the North look different?
• 14:09 What are some of the biggest differences of practicing law in the North?

Transcript

Mark Fancourt-Smith  00:09

Welcome to LawsonInsight! I'm Mark Fancourt-Smith, a litigation partner located in Lawson Lundell’s Vancouver office.

Alix Stoicheff  00:16

And I'm Alixandra Stoicheff, a litigation associate located in our Calgary office.

Mark Fancourt-Smith  00:20

One of the things that makes Lawson Lundell distinctive is the fact that we have a thriving practice in northern Canada. This episode we'll be speaking with Sheila MacPherson and Sandra Mackenzie, Sheila and Sandra both partners and Lawson's Yellowknife office. Sheila has lived in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories for most of her life. Her practice involves litigation, Child Protection Law, constitutional law, and legislative drafting. Sheila, welcome to the podcast!

Sheila MacPherson  00:46

Thanks, Mark and pleasure to be here!

Mark Fancourt-Smith  00:49

Sandra also practices in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut in the areas of employment law, Child Protection, law and workplace investigations. And most recently was elected as a member of the executive committee of the Law Society for the Northwest Territories. Sandra. Welcome.

Sandra Mackenzie  01:03

Thank you, Mark and thank you, Alix!

Mark Fancourt-Smith  01:05

So the first question I wanted to ask is, what's our current complement up in Yellowknife now? And what are the main areas that we're practicing? 

Sheila MacPherson  01:15

Thanks, Mark. Right now we have seven lawyers in our office as well as an articling student. We practice in a wide variety of different areas, litigation, regulatory, employment, corporate commercial, the work we do for the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories involving legislative drafting, we do work in the area of child protection, we do work in the area of indigenous law. So a fairly broad array of legal practice areas are covered in our northern office. We will soon be joined by some students from the Nunavut law school. We're quite excited about that. The University of Saskatchewan has a law program in a Iqaluit, a satellite campus, if you will. And next year, we will have a student from the Nunavut law school working with us for a period of time during your articles. And as well, we will have a number of other Nunavut law students coming to us for shorter periods of time. So we're, we're quite excited about that connection and our involvement with the Nunavut law program.

Alix Stoicheff  02:22

Sheila and Sandra How did each of you come to practice in Yellowknife? I know you have both sort of different paths to ending up practicing law in the north and, and they're both sort of interesting, interesting stories of how you got there.

Sheila MacPherson  02:35

Alix, my story actually is a bit unusual for Northern lawyers. In that I really was raised in the north. So many of the folks that we have practicing law in the north come from away or come from outside of the NWT but I was one of the lawyers who was raised in the Northwest Territories, went away to law school and always determined that I would come back here, I grew up a significant portion of my life was spent in Frobisher Bay, which is now calculate the capital of Nunavut. But by the time I finished law school when I finished law school, there was really no ability to article in Frobisher Bay, there was a very, very, very small legal bar in Frobisher Bay. And there simply was no ability to article so I went west to Yellowknife 33 years ago, to do my articles. And to become called to the bar, I always thought that I would head back east over to let's now calculate, but life happens. You make a family and you continue working. And I'm lucky enough that I have lots of months of contact, and lots of trips and lots of involvement with Nunavut, what's now Nunavut. And so I really have the opportunity to spend as much time in in Nunavut as I can, and practice law there, which has just been tremendous.

Alix Stoicheff  04:04

And Sandra, your legal career started with law school in the south. I understand it and then you came up to Yellowknife to practice Am I correct in remembering that?

Sandra Mackenzie  04:14

Yes, Alix. So I came up north originally in 2007. I for a short time, I grew up outside of Toronto and attended the University of Windsor law school. And they have a program where you can spend a semester in your third year clerking with the Supreme Court in the Northwest Territories. So I thought that that would be a great adventure. And so off, I went having never been north of Calgary before. And I arrived in January 2007. And it was minus 48. I remember when I got off the plane, and I'm not sure what I expected, but I ended up loving the game. The work that I did, and I made some great friends here, I went back to Toronto to finish my articles at a big firm. And then I worked for about two years at a litigation boutique firm in Toronto, but I always had it in the back of my head that I would come back to the north. And that opportunity presented itself in 2011. And my partner and I bought a car, and we drove across the country. And the rest is history. Now Yellowknife is home. We have two young kids, we have a cabin outside the city, and my partner has his own law practice here in town. We have a good work life balance, and we really love the community here.

Mark Fancourt-Smith  05:43

I just wanted to ask you both not a strictly law related question. But Sheila, you're mentioning of having the opportunity to get back to the county where a lot or Sandra having Come From Away how's northern Canada doing in terms of how it's responding to how it's been affected by the COVID-19 pandemic?

Sandra Mackenzie  06:00

Thanks, Mark. Overall, I would say that northern Canada has been doing relatively well. And they have considerably less cases here than in most of the most of southern Canada. However, the risks here are high if there is community spread. So there have been much stricter measures that have been put in place in terms of moving in and out of the territories. So between June and November, there was a travel bubble that had been established between the end of UT and Nunavut, which was great for us because it meant we got to travel back and forth for work. And that was recently closed in the middle of November, when there was evidence of community spread in a community in Nunavut up until then they'd had zero cases, which was quite remarkable. And they've now responded with very strict lockdown measures. And so far that seems to have been working. And the number of new cases is down every day. So this is definitely a unique environment. And their response has been considerably different than in the rest of the country.

Sheila MacPherson  07:05

Mark, what's really interesting about Nunavut is that they had quite a significant outbreak, the first outbreak that started about four weeks ago. And it's amazing how the people of Nunavut have responded to that the very strict lockdown measures that have been put into place, including in the community, which is most affected by the outbreak, the community of Arviat. And on a daily basis, the number of active COVID cases are going down the communities and Nunavut when it had a crisis when it had the COVID hit in full raging force responded in a remarkable way and, and really have turned the tide on what was a terrible outbreak. Just sort of establishing the strength of the people of Nunavut, and their cohesiveness in addressing and addressing COVID, the COVID outbreak. So with luck, hopefully that'll continue. The situation in Nunavut will continue to improve, and there'll be bad COVID and once again, become a COVID free jurisdiction. It's been really quite remarkable to watch.

Alix Stoicheff  08:21

Sheila that's really good to hear. I know. I've been following the news reports of that down here from the south. And I am glad to hear about the tide that's turning in that respect. I wanted to turn that focus to sort of the legal issues arise in the north and to get your sense both Sheila and Sandra about some of the unique legal issues that arise in your northern practices.

Sheila MacPherson  08:42

Sure. One of the factors that make the end of UT in Nunavut, perhaps a bit different from the rest of Canada is the predominance of issues involving indigenous people. In Nunavut, the Inuit are by far the majority population. And in that territory. In the end, NWT indigenous people comprise approximately half of the population of the North. As a consequence, any lawyer practicing in either territory is going to have to be very familiar with issues involving indigenous people. But we also have all sorts of other issues. We have a tremendous resource industry, non-renewable resource industry, with a number of quite successful minds. Operating and lawyers, including in our own firm are going to come across issues involving resource development on a frequent basis. We also have other constitutional issues that arise from time to time. issues involving the status of the territory is we're not a province, but over time, particularly with devolution of authority. We have become much more like a province in terms of the exercise of power And every once in a while, that does bring up the issue of what is the status of the Northwest Territories are we do we have a separate crown, for example, we are able to enjoy the full scope of parliamentary privilege in our legislature that other Canadian legislators enjoy and other issues of that ilk. So there's quite a few interesting, unique areas of law that a lawyer can be involved in, in practice law in the north.

Mark Fancourt-Smith  10:29

And I wanted to ask you a little bit about your travel experience, you know, that down the south, you hear people saying all you know, if I don't really want to have to travel to the interior of the province after October gets a little dicey. That's sort of the that kind of travel is sort of a way of life for you, I suppose.

Sandra MacKenzie  10:46

Yes, it is Mark. And I think both Sheila and I travel quite regularly as part of our in front of our practice. And I have traveled to a number of small communities, both in the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut. And I feel quite privileged, I think to have had the opportunity to, I've traveled to so many places that most Canadians never get to visit. I've traveled to a number of communities north of Yellowknife. And, you know, for example, I've put my toe in the Arctic Ocean. I've seen a growler polar bear, which is a mixture of a polar bear and a grizzly. And I had the opportunity to purchase the Cape Dorset print directly from the printer in Kinggate, Nunavut, which, for me was very exciting. Because I have collected Cape Dorset prints for a long time. As a young lawyer here or anyone new to the north, I think you very quickly learn how to adapt to the northern travel. So the court here actually issues a directive that you will not be allowed on an airplane in the wintertime unless you have all of your winter gear on. And that has to be appropriate winter gear like Canada Goose parka, good boots. And if you don't have that stuff, then you can't go on the court circuit. You often also learn to bring your own food. You learn which communities have a North Mart that's going to be open, you know when you arrive or open on Sundays. And I often find that I prepare meals in advance and freeze them and bring them with me. I have a traveling office in that sack packed up in not getting much use right now. But it's packed up in a duffel bag and it has a scanner and a printer and everything I need and I take that with me. And a third I think that the most important thing that you learn is to be flexible and adaptable because if there's a weather delay or and your flight gets canceled, it could be days you could be stuck somewhere without food and you always learn to bring you know extra Mr. Noodles or something like that in your suitcase and always an extra book and extra underwear and only takes once getting stuck without those things and you learn your lesson.

Sheila MacPherson  13:23

Isn't that the truth? Sandra I remember. I remember being in Cambridge Bay once and not realizing that the restaurant wasn't open and I arrived too late to go to the northern store to pick up groceries. The next day I had to run a trial and between interviewing witnesses and trial preparation, I was in Cambridge bay for 36 hours before I actually had a meal. It was just one of those things that where I first learned that okay, I better tuck a protein bar or a couple of protein bars into my backpack to make sure I always have them I've never forgotten that lesson. So you make a good point there.

Alix Stoicheff  14:09

Sandra and Sheila hearing you talk about this reminds me have a couple summers ago when I had the chance to come up to the Yellowknife office and work with the two of you and Sandra. I know before we got on the plane you gave me a number of these tips. So I fond memories the best traveling together and I show a lot of people the photo of the beautiful color of the water as we were flying into Rankin inlet in June a few years ago. I wanted to touch on a few of the ways that practicing in Nunavut and the NWT differs from practice in the south and we've talked about travel a little bit but I know there are a number of other ways. So Sheila, maybe you can tell us a few of those. Sure.

Sheila MacPherson  14:52

Now I haven't practiced down south as we call it, but I've talked to lots of people about what that is. Like, including, obviously colleagues that Lawson's. One of the things that really distinguishes practice in the north from the larger center, south of 60 is the very small bar. We've touched upon that in terms of how it can, can result in lawyers being exposed to different legal issues very early on in their career, we only have a little in excess of 100 resident lawyers in the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut stats are about the same. So the very size of the small bar, particularly when you look at the fact that we are working in a jurisdiction, that's going to have the same challenges the same issues that any province would have in Canada, and yet we have a much smaller bar to deal with the same wide array of complicated issues. What that really means is that you, as a young lawyer you will be exposed to legal issues much earlier on than you would anywhere else in Canada. Even in Canada's smallest jurisdictions, the ratio of lawyers to the population bases such that up here, you're just going to be more deeply immersed into legal issues much more quickly. The other area, however, in visiting judges often comment on this, they comment on the civility between counsel and the respect that is shown to lawyers by each other, we have a highly collegial bar, we're too small, not to be collegial. You cannot burn your bridges with counsel here very likely, or else you won't be able to work productively, and certainly not happily on files, if you have a reputation as being difficult to work with. People here learn who each other are quite quickly. And they learn to work together in a way that really serves the needs of our clients. I think a collegial bar, ethical bar, a cooperative bar is in the public interest in terms of allowing us to arrive at solutions quite quickly.

Alix Stoicheff  17:19

And Sandra, as you know, have you had experience practicing this was before coming up north? Is there anything that you wanted to add to the comments that Sheila made about the ways that it's unique to practice in Yellowknife and more broadly in the north?

Sandra MacKenzie  17:37

I definitely noticed the difference among between the way that lawyers treated each other. There's a level of respect here that often wasn't, and not in every case by any means. But that sometimes wasn't fair between lawyers in cases in Toronto. And I think that the difference being that here, you're likely to run into that opposing counsel, at the grocery store, at your kids activities. And you're also going to have many cases with them in the future. So the relationship that you develop with them is very important. So that's definitely one thing that I noticed. I also noticed that I think this has more to do with Lawson Lundell. But also with the lawyers here in the North is that all of them are very interested in in recruiting and mentoring young lawyers and have the time to, to talk things out with young counsel. And often when you are on a circuit in a community, or we're traveling, you're traveling with the whole court party. So the judge, the opposing counsel, the court clerk, the court reporter, you get to know them. And they are open to providing feedback and comments and just in the swapping the stories of you know, things that have happened in the past, you also learn a lot. So that's one difference that I noticed as well.

Mark Fancourt-Smith  19:11

Well, thinking of having the time to talk things through I wanted to thank you both for your time today. Thanks for coming on the podcast and telling us a little bit about life in practice in the north. Take care of both you and stay safe.

Sheila MacPherson  19:24

Thanks so much, Mark and Alix. Yeah, thank you both.

Sandra MacKenzie  19:27

It was great to chat.

Mark Fancourt-Smith  19:28

Thank you for joining us on Lawson insight and thanks again to Sheila and Sandra for joining us today.

Alix Stoicheff  19:33

For more information, please visit our website at www.lawsonlundell.com. You can also stay up to date by connecting with us on Twitter using the handle @LawsonLundell, and by subscribing to the podcast on Apple, Spotify or Google podcasts. Thanks for listening!